Proper Signage & Responsible SSP Usage

[28HopUp]

So in terms of identifying that a SSP (or any vehicle) is no longer being used by the police, is there a preferred way to say it on the vehicle? I saw on an enthusiast site where they recommended:

OUT OF SERVICE


But for some reason I vaguely remember something about it being better to say:

NOT IN SERVICE


So I thought I'd open it up for discussion. Is one preferred over the other?

[ImEvil1]

My vote:

NOT A POLICE VEHICLE

:)

[GSPI]

Not In Service indicates the vehicle is no longer in service and is not ever going to be in service. Out of Service is a temporary condition for an in-service vehicle being taken out for repairs etc.

Not In Service is best!

http://images40.fotki.com/v775/photos/4/42477/2505011/DSC_7314-vi.jpg

Just my 2 cents.

[GSPI]

Did I also mention that I cover anything that says "POLICE" on the car when going to shows...

http://images49.fotki.com/v1556/photos/4/42477/2505011/840A0043-vi.jpg

[mac88chp]

My vote:

NOT A POLICE VEHICLE

:)Yikes, that one would get you in hot water real quick in most places for obvious reasons. :yes:

Not In Service indicates the vehicle is no longer in service and is not ever going to be in service. Out of Service is a temporary condition for an in-service vehicle being taken out for repairs etc.

Not In Service is best!

Just my 2 cents.+1

http://images40.fotki.com/v1238/photos/4/438439/1627859/dscn3545-vi.jpg

[copper]

Just a caution for signs magneticly held on. I used to use magnetic signs but after a short time in the sun, It was pointed out by a friend that the finish got dull because of the magnet. It may be more prominent on black or dark blue colors so be careful. I had to polish a lot to get it back to the shine.

[mac88chp]

Just a caution for signs magneticly held on. I used to use magnetic signs but after a short time in the sun, It was pointed out by a friend that the finish got dull because of the magnet. It may be more prominent on black or dark blue colors so be careful. I had to polish a lot to get it back to the shine.Yep, that's happened to me with the covers on the black deck lid paint....no detectable problem so far on the white doors. When it's hot and sunny out, I carry a roll of blue painters tape to cover up the rear lettering for the ride back home.

[ImEvil1]

Yikes, that one would get you in hot water real quick in most places for obvious reasons. :yes:


Not really. Is it illegal in your state to have the word "POLICE" on your vehicle?

I can only speak for FL law, where it isn't illegal, but I'm sure that the same common sense approach reigns supreme in other states:

FSS 843.085.............To own or operate a motor vehicle marked or identified in any manner or combination by the word or words “police,” “patrolman,” “sheriff,” “deputy,” “trooper,” “highway patrol,” “Wildlife Officer,” “Marine Patrol Officer,” “marshal,” “constable,” or “bailiff,” or by any lettering, marking, or insignia, or colorable imitation thereof, including, but not limited to, stars, badges, or shields, officially used to identify the vehicle as a federal, state, county, or municipal law enforcement vehicle or a vehicle used by a criminal justice agency as now or hereafter defined in s. 943.045 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=trooper&URL=0900-0999/0943/Sections/0943.045.html), which could deceive a reasonable person into believing that such vehicle is authorized by any of the agencies described above for use by the person operating the motor vehicle, unless such vehicle is owned or operated by the appropriate agency and its use is authorized by such agency, or the local law enforcement agency authorizes the use of such vehicle or unless the person

Use of the signage "NOT A POLICE VEHICLE" would be akin to use of the lettering "FASHION POLICE" for a vehicle belonging to a fashion design firm. A reasonable person would not believe it was an authorized LE vehicle.

Of course, I don't drive around in marked vehicles, so I don't have to worry about it. :)

[MOstang]

I use Not In Service. Also have one that I sometimes use that says Show Car Not In Service.

[NHPcars.com]

I've used "Not In Service" on the 78' Fury and people still slam on the brakes and refuse to pass. Even when the cars are on the trailer, they slam on the brakes and fall in behind. I recomend covering all markings and removing or covering all lighting. Especially if your not an LEO.

Mike

[mac88chp]

Not really. Is it illegal in your state to have the word "POLICE" on your vehicle?

I can only speak for FL law, where it isn't illegal, but I'm sure that the same common sense approach reigns supreme in other states:

Use of the signage "NOT A POLICE VEHICLE" would be akin to use of the lettering "FASHION POLICE" for a vehicle belonging to a fashion design firm. A reasonable person would not believe it was an authorized LE vehicle.

In CA it's covered under the same provisions pertaining to paint/markings that resemble a law enforcement vehicle. And the bar is set pretty low as apparently there are very few reasonable persons out there.

I personally know of two local instances where it was applied and it's a safe bet that in a state this big there have been a ton of other cases too:

* an "artist" and his wife each had all white retired police Diplomats. On the front doors of both he had painted the cartoon characters of Porky Pig on one and Elmer Fudd on the other bursting out of an oval and a body length two tone stripe on the side with "Sheriff Porky" and "Sheriff Fudd" lettered inside it on the rear quarters. After much negative contact with LE and a trip to the see the judge, he removed all the markings. (Wish I had gotten a photo of those two.) :)

* a business called "NYPD Pizza" was running four-door full size Fords painted and lettered to very closely resemble old blue and white NYPD units to deliver their goods. They looked quite convincing, you really had to look close to see the word "pizza" on them and the real cops did not appreciate that as they were soon abandoned and replaced with unmarked delivery trucks. (It must have been lousy pizza too as they were out of business within a year.)

Out here, the authorities just don't like to see any LE words, symbols or paint combinations on anything that rolls down the road.

[MOstang]

I've used "Not In Service" on the 78' Fury and people still slam on the brakes and refuse to pass. Even when the cars are on the trailer, they slam on the brakes and fall in behind. I recomend covering all markings and removing or covering all lighting. Especially if your not an LEO.

Mike
Good advice. In addition to the signage mentioned above I cover all the lighting up and meticulously use painters tape to cover up every square inch of markings. You really have to keep your head up and stay alert driving though because of rubber neckers and things like you mention above. Although I have to say I had more close calls nearly getting run into by other drivers when I had my champange gold colored 1969 Mach I. Unforutunately most other drivers payed more attention to my car that to the road. I can recall being the only 2 cars on the road for miles and having a car pass me on the inside and suddenly loose his mind looking at my car and nearly send me off the side of the road. Really have to be alert at all times.

[OSP959(R)]

I don't remember if OSP cars have 'Not In Service' or 'Out Of Service', but the maintenance man uses them all the time. When he's done cleaning the post, he takes a patrol car to the drivers exam station and cleans, and then goes to Walmart to buy supplies. He just drives around with the magnetic sign over the door emblem.

[fallon312]

To dove tail here in in california we had a local guy paint his exterminator trucks black and white and he painted the bug sheriff on the doors in red. His vehicles were impounded so quickly he could not believe it. He appealed to the DMV and lost. The fines were minimal but the cost to repaint the trucks cost him lots of money. Not in service or in an enclosed trailer is the safest way to go. IMO

[NoDrama43]

does "not is service" imply that this is a real police car just "not in service" at this time?

does "out of service" imply that this is a real police car just "out of service" at this time?


It all needs to be covered up.... period, including the blue lights, and it doesn't matter if they work or not.

this includes the words state trooper, state police, police, sheriff, deputy, department, etc etc etc

Just cover it all up so nobody has a chance to be confused.

[GSPI]

I don't remember if OSP cars have 'Not In Service' or 'Out Of Service', but the maintenance man uses them all the time. When he's done cleaning the post, he takes a patrol car to the drivers exam station and cleans, and then goes to Walmart to buy supplies. He just drives around with the magnetic sign over the door emblem.

They use "Out of Service" in red letters around Chardon and down your way.

[ImEvil1]

In CA it's covered under the same provisions pertaining to paint/markings that resemble a law enforcement vehicle.

Not really.



V C Section 27605 Vehicle Resembling Law Enforcement Vehicle.....
27605. No person shall own or operate a motor vehicle painted in the manner described in Section 40800 to resemble a motor vehicle used by a peace officer or traffic officer on duty for the primary purpose of enforcing the provisions of Division 10 (commencing with Section 20000) or Division 11 (commencing with Section 21000) pursuant to Section 40800.
The provisions of this section shall not apply to vehicles which are painted one solid color or to vehicles first registered on or before January 1, 1979. These provisions shall not apply to vehicles which are any of the following:

(a) Owned by vehicle manufacturers or dealers.
(b) Used by law enforcement agencies in the enforcement of the provisions of Division 10 (commencing with Section 20000) or Division 11 (commencing with Section 21000).
(c) Owned by persons or companies who use the vehicles exclusively for movie or television production and display signs stating "movie car" prominently on the doors.
(d) Owned by persons or companies who use the vehicles exclusively for funeral escort purposes.
(e) Motorcycles, as defined in Section 400, without insignia.

Amended Ch. 340, Stats. 1981. Effective January 1, 1982

Just an FYI for those of you in CA.

I still think that putting them on or in a trailer is the best way to go (IN is ideal). Then, there's no worries about paint scratching magnets, painters tape gone wild, misinterpretation of signage, or running into the wrong LE on a bad day and getting into trouble.

[28HopUp]

I still think that putting them on or in a trailer is the best way to go (IN is ideal). Then, there's no worries about paint scratching magnets, painters tape gone wild, misinterpretation of signage, or running into the wrong LE on a bad day and getting into trouble.

Although an enclosed trailer is the ideal way to transport a marked SSP, I know that it's not practical for everyone. Speaking from my own experience, CHP #8395 was purposely not repainted black & white with markings for the sole purpose of being able to drive it on the street. The lights are all covered and inoperable, and the CHP logos/lettering are on magnets for display purposes only. Even unmarked, my sense of respect has grown for antique police vehicles, and I have become quite aware of the responsibilities associated with owning and operating an antique police car.

In terms of my original reason for creating this thread, I recently ordered a printed license plate frame that will say "NOT IN SERVICE" between the top two mounting holes. I plan to cut it out so only the top of the frame is used (to allow the inspection sticker at the bottom to remain visible). Delaware only requires a single DMV plate be placed on the rear of the car, but if the frame comes out good I will make another one for the front. I'll post a picture once it's done.

[Andy]

It's all about you and where you live
Let's start with YOU.
Common sense is not as common as you may think
visual perception is 90% of reality (i made that up)
but it's true. walks like a duck talks like a duck
you get the idea
saying not in service or out of service indicates to most
that...... at any moment it COULD be in service.
I distort the markings with magnetic strips that i carry
in a plastic coffee can that says this to the viewer
(again visual perception)
this WAS a police car.
Not.... COULD be a police car at any time.
additionally i have NEVER connected anything
on the car
Why would i have to...... it's a Display vehicle.
Now where you live
The peoples republic of California laws regarding
display / car show / restored / emergency vehicles
use no common sense at all. maybe if these guys would
not insist on connecting and playing with the lights n siren
at car shows?
Black n White VW Bugs that say geek squad can't be used
in California? come on GEEK SQUAD! vw Bugs?
California (and other states) should be more concerned
about the the guy in the full size crown Vic X police car
the guy that is trying to act the part. (and who knows what else)
http://i55.tinypic.com/2r6fgbl.jpg

[mac88chp]

Not really.

Just an FYI for those of you in CA.

I still think that putting them on or in a trailer is the best way to go (IN is ideal). Then, there's no worries about paint scratching magnets, painters tape gone wild, misinterpretation of signage, or running into the wrong LE on a bad day and getting into trouble.
Bad choice of words on my part. From what I gather, "painted" in that CVC section has been more broadly interpreted to cover markings too, regardless of whether they are applied with paint, decals or felt tip marker. Bottom line is your vehicle cannot resemble a LE vehicle in any way and it's stood up in the courts.

And trailering your car does not absolutely protect you from overzelous LE. I know of a couple who were jammed up for over 2 hours by a certain CHP officer about their marked CHP Mustang that was being lawfully trailered at the time.

[NoDrama43]

SHOW CAR FOR DISPLAY ONLY

[Andy]

SHOW CAR FOR DISPLAY ONLY

WHAT HE SAID

[ImEvil1]

WHAT HE SAID

I'll write that on the side of my TRAILER. :bouncy:

[CNTLOSE]

When I had the FHP I just used painters tape and covered the fender "STATE TROOPER" decals and I used several pieces to cover the door shield. On the trunk I had a magnet that read, "NOT IN SERVICE". All lights were covered so nothing stuck out at all.

On the TX car it is a little easier. I just put a piece of tape across the "PUBLIC SAFETY" part and cover the lights. If I am taking it on the highway out of state I will also put the NIS magnet on the trunk.

[copper]

SHOW CAR FOR DISPLAY ONLY

I like that wording. I have a sign stating SHOW CAR IN TRANSIT-NOT IN SERVICE. They are on both doors and in the rear window. The other signage is covered with painters tape. I've had police pull along side and give me the thumbs up. This doesn't mean it is the best but I want to let the Police know I'm not impersonating.

[mac88chp]

Another signage variation used here:

http://images44.fotki.com/v1419/photos/4/438439/1545137/04Ripon24-vi.jpg

http://images57.fotki.com/v496/photos/4/438439/1545137/04Ripon25-vi.jpg

[GSPI]

Yes, California does have a very stringent requirement and that actually is how movie companies cover the cars in that manner. The fact that the car is painted in that way is illegal there too.

[copcamaro]

When I had my mustang I used magnets the size of the state decal,state patrol signs and painted the magnets same color as car.
Now with the Camaro!! I have to use those magnets with double faced poster tape painted black to do the job, as the doors and fenders (all except the rear quarter) are composite material.
Except for the creme top and trunk, going to shows you would not know it being an X-police car.
Usually remove the lightbar and put in back seat on a specially built platform.

[GSPI]

I'm guessing that you don't go to Florida then as the color is a sticking point with them down there from what I've seen in their vehicle code. I was wondering how you attach those covers. Magnets are great on metal but even so, it works best if you use some blue painter's tape to keep things secure.

[copcamaro]

I'm guessing that you don't go to Florida then as the color is a sticking point with them down there from what I've seen in their vehicle code. I was wondering how you attach those covers. Magnets are great on metal but even so, it works best if you use some blue painter's tape to keep things secure.

Correct about taking to FL.
I will NEVER take the car there, as I would go directly to jail with the color.
As I said the painted magnetic covers are held on with Scotch doublesided POSTER tape.It's as thin as regular scotch tape, but sticky both sides.
I drove all the way to Ca. from Mo. and back 4,000 plus miles, at sometimes a little above the speed limit and never had one come loose and fly off.
When they are painted the car color, it really camoflages the car.
I even take the 3 antennas off and leave the AM/FM and CB radio on.
Radar, I leave in and play with it at times, which really slows some of those agressive drivers down.
To my reccolection I have never been stopped in my 20 years showing the cars, as I believe in taking all the precautions I can as to not get stopped and screw this hobby up.

[28HopUp]

To my reccolection I have never been stopped in my 20 years showing the cars, as I believe in taking all the precautions I can as to not get stopped and screw this hobby up.

Now you've done it! By saying that, you're gonna get pulled over any day now. Isn't that Murphy's Law? :) Hope you don't get stopped. In terms of the last part of your sentence, thank you for your diligence.

[NoDrama43]

sounds like you have it figured out. taking the lightbar and antennas off go a long way to"de-police" the car.

[GSPI]

Bill, I don't think there's much choice. We all have to pay attention to keeping this hobby going. It is too easy to go the wrong way with these cars and nothing but trouble can come of it and someone in DC or otherwise will take it upon themselves to legislate our hobby out of existence!

[ImEvil1]

Bill, I don't think there's much choice. We all have to pay attention to keeping this hobby going. It is too easy to go the wrong way with these cars and nothing but trouble can come of it and someone in DC or otherwise will take it upon themselves to legislate our hobby out of existence!

Amen.

[NoDrama43]

A few just don't seem to understand the importance of their actions with the cars. the worst is the ones that do stupid things, then arrogantly brag about it on a public forum. Heaven forbid someone question their intentions, especially if they think their profession gives them some sort of "pass" on making us look bad ??? People really need to think about what all the other motoring public sees and what opinions they may formulate because of how we drive the cars. I have made mistakes with the cars myself over the past 15 years, but I have learned from my mistakes and the mistakes of others. The sooner everyone gets on the same page and makes "image" a priority, the better we and every other cop car owner/driver will be accepted. It only takes one childish act to tip the scales against us as we have seen in the past. We all make mistakes, and sometimes we just need to say...wow I screwed that up and it won't happen again.

I am off the soapbox on this topic. I think we have beat it to death.............

[GSPI]

The sooner everyone gets on the same page and makes "image" a priority, the better we and every other cop car owner/driver will be accepted.

Perception is reality. Make sure the perception is not a bad reflection on the hobby.

[MOstang]

A few just don't seem to understand the importance of their actions with the cars. the worst is the ones that do stupid things, then arrogantly brag about it on a public forum. Heaven forbid someone question their intentions, especially if they think their profession gives them some sort of "pass" on making us look bad ??? People really need to think about what all the other motoring public sees and what opinions they may formulate because of how we drive the cars. I have made mistakes with the cars myself over the past 15 years, but I have learned from my mistakes and the mistakes of others. The sooner everyone gets on the same page and makes "image" a priority, the better we and every other cop car owner/driver will be accepted. It only takes one childish act to tip the scales against us as we have seen in the past. We all make mistakes, and sometimes we just need to say...wow I screwed that up and it won't happen again.

Those thoughts were really well put. :2thumbs:

[ImEvil1]

Those thoughts were really well put. :2thumbs:

x1000.

[Andy]

http://i51.tinypic.com/11ccff7.jpg

[NoDrama43]

Nice car Andy. Looking good !

[Andy]

Thanks Jim. Hope the weather is starting to improve where you are
we are headed out to a car show in Cave Creek Arizona tomorrow
should be at or near 90 deg. regarding the MOVIE CAR markings
I seen in Phoenix the other day...........
a BMW marked in Euro police car type tape/decals
had a covered light bar that said MOVIE CAR?
turned left before i could get a Picture.

[28HopUp]

Hi Andy! Nice to see you around. Hope you enjoy the show.

A few just don't seem to understand the importance of their actions with the cars. the worst is the ones that do stupid things, then arrogantly brag about it on a public forum. Heaven forbid someone question their intentions, especially if they think their profession gives them some sort of "pass" on making us look bad ??? People really need to think about what all the other motoring public sees and what opinions they may formulate because of how we drive the cars. I have made mistakes with the cars myself over the past 15 years, but I have learned from my mistakes and the mistakes of others. The sooner everyone gets on the same page and makes "image" a priority, the better we and every other cop car owner/driver will be accepted. It only takes one childish act to tip the scales against us as we have seen in the past. We all make mistakes, and sometimes we just need to say...wow I screwed that up and it won't happen again.

Jim, that was an extrememly well-worded comment about the responsibility involved with owning/operating an antique/classic police vehicle. GSPI is right - it's how our actions are perceived by the public that carry weight. It's obvious that some SSP owners have differing opinions as to what's acceptable behavior and what is not. Given that individual states have different laws about what is allowed and what is not, it becomes difficult to develop any common sense guidelines for owning/operating our SSP's. But by having an intelligent open discussion, hopefully we can bring light to an important topic related to our hobby.

[ImEvil1]

Jim, that was an extrememly well-worded comment about the responsibility involved with owning/operating an antique/classic police vehicle. GSPI is right - it's how our actions are perceived by the public that carry weight. It's obvious that SSP enthusiasts have differing opinions as to what's acceptable behavior and what is not. Given that individual states have different laws about what is allowed and what is not, it becomes difficult to develop any common sense guidelines for owning/operating our SSP's. But by having an intelligent open discussion, hopefully we can bring light to an important topic related to our hobby.

I'm proud of the fact that we are able to do that here. We've all made mistakes, and we'll also make more before it's all said and done. The ability to talk about it *intelligently* and *openly* is what makes us different. That, and being willing to go the extra mile to stand up to others who can't seem to do the right thing.

Anyone want to see a new thread on the topic?

[28HopUp]

Anyone want to see a new thread on the topic?

Since the original intention of this thread flows nicely into responsible usage of our SSP's, I retitled this thread instead of creating a new one.

The topic shouldn't be seen as some folks setting themselves up above other SSP owners. This isn't intended to bash anyone in particular, but instead to discuss the importance of making sure our actions are not perceived by anyone in such a way that it is harmful to our hobby.

[ImEvil1]

Sounds good to me....and I don't think we'll have a problem like that here.

[OSP959(R)]

I posted this at copcar.com, but I wanted to share it here since it's the same subject matter:


I'm new to the hobby, but I have a lot of experience with patrol cars. I was a law enforcement explorer (scout), security guard driving a marked 'patrol car', a local police officer, and a state trooper. You're alway under the microscope when you're driving a patrol car. The public is quick to call in a complaint on anything you do in a police/state patrol car. The police watch waiting for the 'wannna be's' in the security cars to mess up.

The problem with old police cars is a combination of the above. If you screw up, the public see's it and it looks bad on the agency you're car is displaying. This upsets the public and the agencies. Signs like 'Out Of Service', 'Not In Service', 'Movie Car', 'Show car', etc, doesn't meen anything to the public. To them they just think it meens you're not on duty. You leave a black eye on the organization you're not even associated with.

Personally, I don't think a cruiser that's permanently marked should be allowed to drive on the road (unless in a parade). If it's permanently marked, trailer it. If you want to drive it to the shows, use magnetic markings. We should be more concerned about protecting the image of the agency we're displaying, than the paint on our cars. I see people say they don't want to use magnetics because of the effects it has over time on the finish, so they permanently mark them and then use signs and painters tape.

The Ohio State Highway Patrol copyrighted their logo. You can't even get it for model cars anymore. If the collectors screw up to many times, all the other agencies will follow. People could kill this hobby before I can even get a chance to show my car. There could come a day when you need a license from an agency to display their logo.

I'm sure my comment will not be well received by some people. But mark my word, if we cast a bad image on an agency, they will take steps to protect their image, and keep you from tarnishing it.

Personally, I wouldn't care if agencies had exact specifications your car had to meet, had to be inspected, had to have their license to display present at all times, and had to have a 'pass' indicating the date and location wherever the car was being displayed. It's their logo, they should know when and where it's being displayed.

Now, I don't want it to come to that. Do you?

[GSPI]

Looks to me that we are all on the same page here.

[ImEvil1]

X1000. Appreciate the comments. Keep 'em coming.

[NoDrama43]

I have been watching the CCdC thread pretty closely. It seems as though they are also on the same page as we are here. At least they react the same to some of situations we find ourselves policing.

[ImEvil1]

I have been watching the CCdC thread pretty closely. It seems as though they are also on the same page as we are here. At least they react the same to some of situations we find ourselves policing.

That's also a good thing. They've been doing this longer than we have, and the reputation they have amongst LE agencies is a very professional one. These are the guys getting invites to shows that most others aren't. They run a tight ship and it shows.

[28HopUp]

As some of you know, I am an Administrator on www.mustangforums.com. I posted there about being banned from the other SSP forum this past week for privately questioning the decision by the forum staff to scuttle the discussion about (ir)responsible use of old police cars in the eyes of the public. (yes, my account was passive-aggressively stripped of its account settings, i.e. banned)

One of the other Admins on MF asked me what the big deal was about some guy acting out, thinking the worst that could happen is that he'd get a ticket. I thought my response to him really explained why some of us are so concerned about that type of activity, so I wanted to share it here -

Chris, when I got my SSP, I never gave any thought to the implications of driving an old police car. Not only do I need to be mindful of the cops and other motorists so they do not think that I am an impersonator, but I also need to be careful of my surroundings. I could easily pull into a gas station or convenience store one evening while it's being robbed, and be mistaken for an off-duty cop. Remember those 3-4 cops who were gunned down at a Seattle area coffee house about 1 1/2 years ago? That store was the same location where the local SSP crew would meet for coffee. Any one of them could have been shot too if they were there that morning.

In terms of this knucklehead, the danger comes from a citizen complaint or an on-duty cop witnessing it. Or worse, had there been a news chopper covering the accident/traffic we all could have seen video of his foolishness. What's the big deal? Well, at least one state (New Hampshire) has apparently outlawed private citizens from putting any kind of emergency lights and/or markings on their cars. The NH legislature passed that law to stop impersonators, but it also killed the police collector car hobby in that state.

Most police departments own the copyrights to their logos, and they could require a permit or license for anyone to use their logo on a restoration. Ohio went so far as to prohibit using their logos on ANYTHING (model cars too).

So this small aspect of the collector car hobby is in a unique position where the actions of outsiders (posers in late-model Crown Vics) or members of the group themselves could destroy the hobby. THAT is why some of these guys get so fired up when somebody misbehaves.

The Admin at MF asked a legitimate question because he is not part of the police car collector group. But it should be common sense to those of us who own/restore/operate an out-of-service police car or clone.

[ImEvil1]

As some of you know, I am an Administrator on www.mustangforums.com (http://www.mustangforums.com/). I posted up in the Moderator Room there about being banned from the other SSP forum this past week for privately questioning the decision by the forum staff to scuttle the discussion about (ir)responsible use of old police cars in the eyes of the public. (yes, my account was passive-aggressively stripped of its account settings, i.e. banned)

One of the other Admins on MF asked me what the big deal was about some guy acting out, thinking the worst that could happen is that he'd get a ticket. I thought my response to him really explained why some of us are so concerned about that type of activity, so I wanted to share it here -

The Admin at MF asked a legitimate question because he is not part of the police car collector group. But it should be common sense to those of us who own/restore/operate an out-of-service police car or clone.
Bill,

Since you are an admin on a site with over 150,000 members, I know that you have the experience and ability to deal with disagreements in a mature and responsible manner. That was one of the reasons I asked you to help moderate here. The fact that you were banned for privately disagreeing with the forum staff across the way doesn't surprise me, but it also serves to reinforce the notion that certain members of the hobby are in it for the wrong reasons.

[copcamaro]

Correct about taking to FL.
I will NEVER take the car there, as I would go directly to jail with the color.
As I said the painted magnetic covers are held on with Scotch doublesided POSTER tape.It's as thin as regular scotch tape, but sticky both sides.
I drove all the way to Ca. from Mo. and back 4,000 plus miles, at sometimes a little above the speed limit and never had one come loose and fly off.
When they are painted the car color, it really camoflages the car.
I even take the 3 antennas off and leave the AM/FM and CB radio on.
Radar, I leave in and play with it at times, which really slows some of those agressive drivers down.
To my reccolection I have never been stopped in my 20 years showing the cars, as I believe in taking all the precautions I can as to not get stopped and screw this hobby up.

Copy of my letter from Col. of Colo. State patrol to the Col. of th FL. state patrol.
I worked promoting the CSP for some 12 years and NEVER A PROBLEM!!!

[ImEvil1]

VERY nice, Ray. :)

The case law has changed things a bit, and you will not go directly to jail just for being there, but all it takes is running into the wrong person and having to deal with a million questions. I plan on trailering my FHP everywhere anyway. It's a safer way to go. I went to the MCOH show today and saw a '69/'70 Boss 302 with a rearranged front end. Guy was driving it to the show and a drunk driver hit him, then tried to flee the scene.:eek:

[GSPI]

That is a nice recognition by the CSP Colonel and it shows trust. Now what was Colonel Czernis' response?

[Andy]

Welcome Home Bill
you are with friends.
Now if you can just get your $ back from
that other SSP forum as i did (YES i got it back)
when i was denied access to the site.
http://i56.tinypic.com/33dilic.jpg
I applaud Mikes decision to make you
a Moderator here.
I think you are doing a Great job!
Again Welcome Home.

[copcamaro]

That is a nice recognition by the CSP Colonel and it shows trust. Now what was Colonel Czernis' response?


I was pretty proud of their confidence in me and as the the FL. Col's. response!!!
Never heard a word back!! and figure I never will!

[28HopUp]

Welcome Home Bill
you are with friends.
Now if you can just get your $ back from
that other SSP forum as i did (YES i got it back)
when i was denied access to the site.
I applaud Mikes decision to make you
a Moderator here.
I think you are doing a Great job!
Again Welcome Home.

Andy, my $20 was refunded before I knew that my account was being banned.



I was pretty proud of their confidence in me and as the the FL. Col's. response!!!
Never heard a word back!! and figure I never will!

Ray, that is a great letter!

[GSPI]

I was pretty proud of their confidence in me and as the the FL. Col's. response!!!
Never heard a word back!! and figure I never will!

I figured as much from FL. They had really put the clamps down when one of the collector whackers I and many at CCdC had experience with named Bill Parks tried to help put together a show and "assisted" the show organizers from PCOOA or EVOOA by doing some PR with FHP in 1999... Here's his photo from that era:

http://images114.fotki.com/v634/photos/4/42477/151357/CMFbadge-vi.jpg

With his list of whackerisms (in his delusional mind he thought he was a Vietnam vet and a former LEO and for that matter an attorney too), he basically got a response from them with a simple and strongly worded, "any car that shows up as a police vehicle will be impounded and confiscated from it's owner, trailered or not and then the owner will be cited for impersonating". That didn't separate out the FHP "restorations" either, that was everybody.

Thanks to one moron, FHP is probably never going to respond to you or anyone else in the hobby at all.... and that's one of the real stories behind why FHP clamps down on the collectors.

[28HopUp]

With his list of whackerisms (in his delusional mind he thought he was a Vietnam vet and a former LEO and for that matter an attorney too), he basically got a response from them with a simple and strongly worded, "any car that shows up as a police vehicle will be impounded and confiscated from it's owner, trailered or not and then the owner will be cited for impersonating". That didn't separate out the FHP "restorations" either, that was everybody.

Thanks to one moron, FHP is probably never going to respond to you or anyone else in the hobby at all.... and that's one of the real stories behind why FHP clamps down on the collectors.

So are things the same in Florida in regards to clamping down on those who display a restored police car at a show?

[copcamaro]

When we did our 2005 Golden, Colo. show, Larry Andrinuas and I went in the Col. office in Denver, told him what we wanted to do.
He said that based on my and Larry's past support of the patrol he would give anyone who registered, a letter stating they were coming into CO. to show their cars. Now this meant they still wanted prec,ahtions taken with covering decals and lights. After the show we visited with him again and asked how we (the Club) was viewed by the troopers and public to which he responded NO PROBLEMS at all!
He was such a gentleman, he, the COL. came to our show and judged the entries in person in full uniform and it was HOT-HOT-HOT.
He then came to our banquet that night presented awards and spoke.
What a gentleman and friend of the hobby this man was. I say was as he has since retired.
The Col. now, seems as responsive also. We have a Colo. Maj. who is also a car person.
We had 3 motorcycles and one patrol car as escort in our cruises.
I feel uneasy traveling in IL,CA,IA, even covered.
Another reason for removing lightbar,is, BETTER GAS MILEAGE.

[MOstang]

Great experiences Ray....and nice letter too! Something to be proud of receiving. I'm real proud of the letters I have from the MSHP Superintendent...past and current one.

[NoDrama43]

I am perplexed as to why someone would pretend they are a cop. I guess it is like the person that pretends they are a soldier or served in the armed forces.

just wierd fellas....I don't get it.

[ImEvil1]

So are things the same in Florida in regards to clamping down on those who display a restored police car at a show?

No, not in today's world. I've personally seen "restored" FHP Mustangs at the Silver Springs show, and nobody got their car impounded or towed.

A member here had an incident awhile back with a Miami-Dade officer over his car, but he ended up on the winning end of the deal. It was still a hassle for him, but the officer had to retire over the whole deal. He was definitely in the wrong.

[ImEvil1]

I am perplexed as to why someone would pretend they are a cop. I guess it is like the person that pretends they are a soldier or served in the armed forces.

just wierd fellas....I don't get it.

There are alot of people out there who have mental problems....personal issues....complexes, or whatever. :shrug:

[GSPI]

Parks has had police attempt to Baker act him in FL before because of mental issues. He is mental of sorts but we've assisted many departments in helping in prosecution and tracking as he is a hazard to females from our experience. He's highly abusive to people that disagree with him and he's also very litigious when it comes to LE departments that he has contact with. And for what it's worth, he's still a collector of old police cars and police items. He now resides in CT. Steer clear of this guy as he's nothing but trouble.

[28HopUp]

One thing that can potentially get the owner of a SSP in trouble, or make us all look bad, is taking pictures or videos and posting them online. There were a few examples I found where the owner was acting inappropriately, but I didn't want to give them additional publicity by posting those pictures/videos here. The types of questionable behaviors caught on film included:

Being shown with alcohol in-hand during parking lot light shows.
Owner (non-LEO) behind the wheel wearing a "county mounty" hat with a beer in-hand.
Simply driving around on public streets with the emergency lights uncovered.
Assuming the position on the fender of a police car.
Staging a pull-over with lights/sirens and the owner(s) as actors.
In-code pictures showing the owner/driver peeling out to respond to a call.
Personally re-enacting an arrest with handcuffs next to a SSP.
Justifying their bad behavior because they are a LEO.
Displaying a badge at a show (a real LEO knowns not to flash his badge around).


All of the above situations demonstrate a lapse in judgment, albeit some things are certainly worse than others. But it reminds us that we need to be careful about what we capture on film.

Over the weekend, I spoke with a fellow SSP owner that we all enjoy having here - Andy. Most of us know Andy for his comedy, but he is VERY careful about what he does with his '85 CHP Mustang. I recently spoke with Andy about the responsibilities associated with owning/operating a SSP, and got his permission to use his good example as a reference here. Some time ago, Andy posted a couple of pictures of his CHP taken out-of-state along the side of the highway, which are shown here:

http://www.mustangcollective.com/imagehosting/27749a9c4911b6d6.jpg
http://www.mustangcollective.com/imagehosting/27749a9c49179645.jpg

Andy was very quick to note in his original thread that he never drives on the street with the logos/lettering/lights exposed. For the pictures, he selected the location and camera angle, and then quickly removed the covers on that side to snap a few pictures. Once that was done, he covered up that side, changed angles, removed the coverings, snapped a few more pictures, and quickly got the car covered up again. Taking pictures of a fully marked car on a public roadway can turn into a bad situation too, but Andy is VERY considerate about displaying his car in the public eye and included information about the care he used to take the pictures.

As was stated previously, the laws vary by state. So it is difficult to establish a set of guidelines to cover all situations. Hopefully, we will give some thought to the circumstances we may find ourselves in, and exercise good judgment when the time comes.

[GSPI]

Laws are different all around but the result is the same. These vehicles are highly illegal and any horsing around can become an issue! People seem to not get it, I love the idea of "acting" like the next guy in the movies but only when it is in a controlled environment such as when some of my fellow car owners are brought into shooting a funny shoe commercial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWoPybzPUiY

Note the use of "Metro" police instead of Chicago Police as CPD does not condone the use of their name (except in Chicago Code). One of the young officers in the background is an actual CPD officer who actually owns one of those cars. My fellow collectors have also been called to act in Chicago Code, Barbershop 1&2, the old Hillstreet Blues, etc. That's all and no where else!

It still seems to me to be common sense but then again, common sense as of late has not been so common!

[Andy]

Laws are different in different States
but COMMON SENSE should always
be in check ALWAYS
one thing that really annoy me it that when someone tries
to apply their States Laws to your car Not in their state.
Kinda like how the news anchors in N.Y. think
that the world revolves around their life style
and the East coast.
I don't know about you guys but i have never had a problem
with ANY official in any State i have traveled to or through
and this way of marking my car in transit says to the casual observer
this is NOT A POLICE CAR
Maby in California it's not good enough
but guess what
I Aint in California


http://i51.tinypic.com/vfv4w4.jpg

[28HopUp]

Laws are different in different States
but COMMON SENSE should always
be in check ALWAYS


Andy,

It does come down to using common sense in most cases. But also, each of us as SSP enthusiasts has a different definition of what activity is acceptable and what isn't. That's one of the reasons for this thread - to publicize that we need to be thinking all the time about how our actions are perceived by others. Perception IS reality.

Let's take an example. Some may view parking lot light shows as OK. I mean, we have the lights, so we might as well use them, right? Others (like most of the LEO members) would disapprove of civilians (or off-duty LEO's) using emergency lights in public settings which are not authorized (a parade or a car show are examples of an authorized situation).

It would be impossible for everyone of us to agree 100% of the time as to what activity is condoned and what isn't, but this open discussion may be of benefit to those who hadn't given sufficient consideration to the topic.

[Andy]

http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/images/smilies/animated/deadhorse.gif

[28HopUp]

http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/images/smilies/animated/deadhorse.gif

HAHA! Maybe you're right Andy. But at least we are getting the message out there.

[28HopUp]

Apparently the horse is not dead yet, so let me comment in no uncertain terms -

As SSP enthusiasts, EACH OF US has a responsibility to ensure that our actions are properly perceived by the public. These old police cars are not expensive toys that can be used without regard to local laws or common sense. If we see something in person or published online that is questionable, then ALL OF US should be willing to discuss the events in question. There is nothing wrong with debating topics important to our hobby, as long as the comments are respectful and are made within the parameters of the forum rules.

This isn't a matter of anyone in particular setting themself up as an enforcer of SSP etiquette. EVERYONE needs to be proactive, or situations will occur that lead States one by one to enact legislation that prohibits ANY marked/lighted former emergency vehicle from being registered. It's already happened guys, so unless you want these SSP's to become strictly trailer queens then you need to be vocal. It is the responsibility of every SSP owner to police our hobby!

Also, it goes without saying that positive examples of using our SSP's should also be recognized. Nice job at the track, Aaron! That's a very decent ET for a stock 5.0L, and I'm sure the crowd enjoyed the lights and siren.

[NoDrama43]

If someone criticized me about my conduct at a show and I disagreed with it, I would state my reason for thinking so as we are all entitled to our opinions. The raging, temper tantrum, lunacy going on in that feeding frenzy is just another indicator that they know they screwed up. All the banter is just an effort to rationalize, make excuses, and remove the focus from the issue.

Changing the subject, talking about "legal ownership", the lawyerisms, "quality" cars, and all the testosterone filled rhetoric isn't going to succeed in taking the focus off the issue that is addressed in the you tube video I posted. I am not going to let the focus of CONDUCT IN PUBLIC be overshadowed by whether or not I legally owned a car, or who led what parade 6 years ago. That is the purpose of this post, to restate the issue at hand, that I think is damaging to our hobby.

When a person watches the video, you can formulate your own opinion about whether you think it promotes our hobby in a positive or negative way. It is just that simple. Public conduct is the issue here. You either understand the importance of it or you don't. You either agree with me or you don't, that's your choice.

PS... Aaron.....I have ZERO issues with your conduct with your car on a racetrack. Be careful though. That is a pretty rare car and I know very well how Gregg Henderson feels after crashing his. I got a bunch of the parts off his 89 FHP car... :)

[ImEvil1]

Bottom line...the few that don't get it, aren't ever going to. The only ones doing any "enforcing" will be the local LEOs that I will not hesitate to call if I see inappropriate and illegal activity whether at a show, host hotel, or points in between. Not only will I call, but I'll request contact. I would encourage anyone else who sees this type of activity to do the same. Then, those who think they know the difference between semi-public and private property, who think that they can do whatever they want to with their "toys", can attempt to explain themselves to a "real" police officer.

I think we've put this message out loud and clear, and any further discussion is pointless.

[1988Bullitt]

Thanks Guys, I didn’t figure anyone would have a problem with the car at the track but you never know.

Our local 1/8 mile track (Chandler, IN) had its first test and tune night for street cars this past Friday. I usually don’t go out to this track because I am not a huge fan of 1/8 mile racing; I grew up believing drag racing was done on a 1/4 mile strip. Sorry tangent, anyway a few of the local car clubs went out to grudge race their street cars and I decided to take the AL car out just to see how it did. Out of all of the Mustangs I have owned I never ran one of my SSP’s down the track because I always had some type of race car and there was not much point in running a SSP. As soon as I showed up and uncovered the car people flocked to it. When I turned my tech card into the tower they requested me to run the lights and sirens, I told them I had planned to. I ended up running against 2 of my friends and they knew I was going to run the lights and sirens so it was not unexpected to them (last thing I want to do is scare someone when they are going 70-100mph)

I had a really good night and this was the first time a lot of my friends have actually seen the car move with everything on. The car put down a 9.50@75mph with a 2.18 60ft. This is on a 100% stock car down to the air filter with a full tank of gas, spare tire, and all equipment in the car and running, this should be about mid 14’s in the 1/4 probably right around 100mph. I can see why these were feared back in 1980’s. That was pretty fast for the day. This by no means is a drag car and I understand the risks of racing. I have done it for many years, this just happened to be the perfect night to take the car out and not have to line up with 5 sec. dragsters to just get an idea of what this cars actual performance is.

A video from one of my buddies:
http://youtu.be/-kioEjqgZAE


http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/265154_10150215767206580_678516579_7668639_1363063 _n.jpg

[28HopUp]

Aaron, THANK YOU for posting this video up. As I said before, it is just as important to recognize the positive ways to promote our hobby as it to comment on the things not to do.

Speaking solely as a SSP enthusiast, I think your trip down the track with the lights and siren on promotes a positive image of our hobby. Who knows what interest you may have sparked for somebody watching? You may have made a lifetime memory for a youngster who will come into the hobby later in life. You may have caused an adult to reflect upon a time when he remembers seeing these cars patrolling the highways, and cause him to search for one now. These are GREAT things, and it's far different than being a look-at-me moment where it's more about the owner than honoring the heritage behind these old police cars.

I also ran my SSP down the track (http://www.specialservicemustang.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2220&highlight=risk) back in 2009, and you will likely receive the same comments I did regarding the risk involved. That's OK, cuz none of us want to see anything happen to that beautiful SSP of yours. Glad to see you are enjoying the fruits of your labor.

:2thumbs:

[NoDrama43]

great video Aaron. I was invited to take mine down the track Saturday at Indy but I wasn't sure the old 84 was up for it... lol The car runs like a sewing machine but I am not sure how much she can take. Of course with those little skinny tires I could have probably made a little noise.

thanks for posting it up.

[ImEvil1]

Very nice. :2thumbs:

[MOstang]

Fun time Aaron...looking forward to seeing the AL SSP in KC.

[GSPI]

Well, I don't know Aaron, the track is the best place for that stuff I guess but you know the risks. I just don't want to see you attempt that on the street obviously (I'm sure you aren't that type anyway) as I've seen some in the vintage collecting area occur (ie., http://www.specialservicemustang.net/forums/showthread.php?p=14201 ). I can say I did stupid stuff before but it was on the track and not with a cruiser, lost camber on one of my Corvettes at 100 mph with the car attempting to make a sudden right turn fortunately into the fence but I recovered the car before it went completely out of control. These things happen and I wouldn't want to see that happen with your car after all the effort you put into it.

Having helped, designed and run EVOC courses at CEVS, even the best controlled environment can have it's perils. We had a strict policy to not run sirens on the course but lights were allowed. It seems that people have a tendency to overdrive their skills with the addition of an adrenalin shot from the sound of the siren especially if they are not trained to do so. So the siren on a straight run might be ok but it is distracting at times to the driver and will have an effect on them.

All in all, I like the effort you make in being a good steward of the SSP as well as the Copcar hobby. Keep up the good work.:2thumbs:

[Wolfe1013]

Another nod to the Colorado State Patrol. First, I'm lucky in that my Camaro was from their era of all-white cars. Second, even though she still has her original spotlights, both are clear. I disassembled the passenger side spot, cleaned it and put it back together to get it to work, but I left it clear (in-service, it was red and flashed). I did purchase a red bulb directly from Unity to use only once I arrive at car shows.

I want to be able to drive an enjoy the car any time I want. That means she will not be permanently marked. I could not find the CSP decals anywhere and inquired when I was personally invited to the CSP 75th reunion by the Major thanks to my friend, Ron. We have to fill out an application that goes to the Colonel along with a letter stating our purpose. There's a background investigation and if approved, they will notify the graphics company that you will be in touch with them. The Colonel signs the letter and it is returned to you.

I got my letter and ordered magnetic markings. The letter gives approval to the VIN on my car, only that VIN is approved and only while I own the car. I purchased the decals. I can purchase more. However, if for any reason the CSP chooses to rescind my letter of permission, *they* own those decals and I don't have the right to display them any longer. I am quite alright in this as long as they support our hobby and support me. So far, they have been great - couldn't ask for more. I just haven't completed the restoration since I got sidetracked with my '82 CHP.

I do have a period correct working Motorola Maratrac radio in my car and antenna on the roof. I took a ham radio class, got my FCC certification and then bought the used Motorola and had local ham radio frequencies programmed into it. The siren and radar unit stay in the house until it's show time. I don't have the light bar just yet. It will be affixed in pretty much the same way Ray has done his Colorado cars - easily removed to transport to shows.

For the 75th Anniversary last year, this car made a round trip TN-CO-TN without any problem, whatsoever, because she was unmarked and solid white. Even though an older car, how many people out there might have thought it was in service? We will never know. I did stop off at the state line w/Kansas to get a few photos of my car at the Colorado welcome sign. I don't regret that one bit. I later compared photos and saw that was the same spot as some in-service shots floating around on the net.

Plans for the CHP do keep it black & white. But I want to drive it around on the weekends now and then. I have antique plates on it which already limit me to weekend driving unless it's a club event, show or going into the shop for service. I may get some static vinyl cling made up with NOT IN SERVICE for the rear quarter windows only because a few of the surrounding agencies have gone back to black & white paint schemes, themselves. After all these years of PDs with white cars, when I finally get a pair of black & whites, this happens. Some events are held in one of those jurisdictions, too. I've driven it once there without incident.

When I get the car fully restored, it will have magnetic markings as well. Not everyone can afford a tow rig and trailer. So she will be a driver and I'd rather not give anyone around here the chance to nit pick. The color alone could cause a problem one day. I sure hope not. For now, that's not the case. I plan to permanently mount the CC1 controller but will create some type of cover plate that slides over the front face. Lights and equipment will be covered up/disabled and the Ruby removed. I'll be getting a clear bulb to keep in there like on my Camaro.

I applaud those of you posting here in what you're trying to do to preserve our *privilege* to own, enjoy and show these cars. Keep up the good work. I want to maintain that privilege as long as I live. I can abide by restrictions, letters of authorization, licensing, etc. Just as long as I can have the opportunity to own my car, drive it and some times show it.

Greg

[28HopUp]

Thanks for posting your thoughts, Greg(s). :)

EDIT: And Greg/Wolfe1013, I got a silly BIG grin on my face when I read the CHP unit number in your signature. I am very happy for you that the assignment card finally showed up! I really thought it had been lost forever.