Rebuild vs. Reman
 

I'm in a personal debate here. I would really love to keep my matching engine and tranny and rebuild both fresh. The time it would take in getting them done is not an issue as it will allow me to do a detailed restore especially of the engine bay. Biggest problem is it won't be as $$ efficient as getting remanufactured ones with warranties. What to do?

Rebuild it all the way. The transmission is easy as there are Co.'s all over that do T-5's I use a local trooper that rebuilds them in his spare time off... He also use to drive a Mustang back in the day.

Some of the shops that rebuild will also give you a warranty. That is if they are any good at what they do.

Matt

I'm not going to attempt the tranny myself but even though I've never tried before, I have enough tools, equipment, and mechanic freinds that I probably could pull off the engine rebuild. I have always done most all my repairs myself but never went inside the engine... yet.

I'd go with the rebuild also.

Easy stuff... I have built many engines and they are easy enough to build... there are books out there about rebuilding the ford small block. All the stuff you could need you can find at the autoparts house. The transmissions I always take to someone but i do now have all the tools as well as manual and video on how to do it so I may tackle that next time.

Good luck no matter what.

At 243k miles, the engine still runs strong with no smoke (I'm suprised myself). Thing is, it leaks at all the usual spots... valve covers, oil pan, and I think rear main as well. Not to bad but bad enough for me. I just don't want to go through the trouble of replacing just the seals to have something go wrong inside of it later.

Believe me... I'm one of the matching fanatics as well but also a cheapskate which is why I have the delima.

I too am in this dilema with 1993 CHP# 5305. I dont know if I should rebuild or buy a new shortblock.

I would always rebuild.. If you don't then the matching numbers goes away unless you keep the old engine and then you have something you have to store.

The cost to rebuild is not that bad. Yes it is easier to get a shortblock and slap the top end on it but it can be assebled wrong and you not have any realy idea of the quality of work from the engine builder you get the shortblock from.

Good luck whatever you guys decide.

Matt

I forgot you used Glen. I need to get him my Original %5SPD that came out of my car to him to rebuild.

Tom

I too am a person who watches what I spend and how much I spend on things "Cheapskate". After all, most of us here are not well-to-do but when it comes to something that is very important to me I shop for the best price only on the item or thing that I want. In this case I would shop for the best price on a rebuild and not on the new engine. If you only focus on this option than you will not feel bad about the lower prices on the other option.

I know the engine block is stamped with the VIN #, is the tranny as well?

I always wanted to go the route of complete rebuild for years. The task now would be in finding shops that would do a decent job, especially a body shop thats not going to just do the old in & out.

The VIN is on the side of the transmission as well. good luck on the job of getting things taken care of.

Matt

There are several "remanufactuers" that will "reman" your specific original engine. One of them is Grooms Engines in Nashville, Tn. They are a HUGE national engine remanufactuer. I sent countless original matching number Corvette small blocks, low horse Big Blocks and 289/302 engines to them for rebuild or remanufacturing. You choose your own term.

They provide state of the art machining and a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty for the original purchaser in a passenger vehicle. They also offer a "lifetime warranty" where they will reman the engine 1 time for the original owner no matter how many miles, for whatever reason it failed. Even if you run it out of oil! This warranty kicks in after the standard warranty if you purchase this option. This is a SUPERB WARRANTY and Groom's stands behind their products.

They have a performance program for the Grand National guys and do a lot of GN turbo motors. They have been in business over 40 years and are a very stable company. They have great rates for shipping also.

Call Benny at 615 242 4308.

No, I do not work for Groom's or have any association with Groom's other than being a longtime customer. I think their prices are cheaper than I can build an engine with the local machine shop operator who gives little to NO warranty for their work! Give them a try, you just might be surprised!

I saw where you posted this info on the other site and actually looked them up online yesterday. I didn't see the option for them to reman one you send them but this is nice to know. I like the warranty they offer but being in Nashville I figured I didn't want to go through trying to ship it. I'm assuming especially with the lifetime warranty it would be in the $3-5k range from your past experience?

If you do decide to go with the rebuild and don't want to ship it. Go to your local race tracks and ask around.

Typical 350 Chevy reman is about $1200-$1400 for old style motors. The lifetime warranty is extra.

The ford 289/302 rebuilds have been $1100-$1300. Neither was a roller motor which may be more or could be less? Depends on how they buy parts.

Their shipping is cheap by truck standards since they ship SO MUCH! For a special rebuild of YOUR engine your will have to call Benny. They are in the exchange business but they will build your engine.

I have never had a problem with a Groom's engine.

Spoke with Benny about 30 mins ago... very friendly and helpful. Said they could hook me up with a rebuild of my block. If I decide not to do it myself, I think this would be the way I may go considering the guarantee. I told him I was recomended by someone here so thanks.

I also just spoke to Benny. List price for a 1988-1995 302HO Roller motor is $1,560.00 exchange. He will reman YOUR original engine for the same $1,560.00 with no upcharge for a custom build.

Shipping just quoted to one member on this site from Orlando Florida to Nashville at $125.00 and $125.00 for the return of the reman engine to Orlando. Benny says that typical freight rates are $70.00 each way to states touching Tennessee. $100.00 to east coast of Virginia and about $120to Maryland or West Virginia. If you are near you can bring YOUR engine to Nashville. The core charge if you choose not to send your engine and just want to buy one and keep your engine is $285.00.

I was wrong about the warranty. The STANDARD warranty is 18 months UNLIMITED MILEAGE. The LIFETIME warranty is $149.00 and is good to the original purchaser. This is a great deal IF you plan on driving the car a lot AND keeping your car for a longtime. I have purchased the Lifetime warranty on several small blocks in old Corvettes I own.

If you are a shop or have a auto repair business you may be able to get jobber pricing and save some bucks. Don't tell Benny I told you about that!

Give them a chance to earn your business!

I really would like the experience to "rebuild" the entire car myself but hell, if I was going to do that, I'd be painting it to and that's not going to happen in a residential neighborhood. I'm just an average joe so I don't think I'll get in on any jobber pricing but I do appreciate you looking more into it for me. At thoses prices even with shipping, I don't think I'll find much better.

I'm sure that was me he was refering to. I actually have a brother that lives about an hour outside of Nashville which would be a good excuse to visit him but I don't have the truck to haul it in, he does... lol.

Yes, He was referring to you!

Since a core or engine you ship to rebuild will be bare down to the assembled long block, you could remove the heads which will make the short block fit in the trunk of most cars. It's heavy but possible!

My other car is a Ram-Air TA hatchback... it would at least be entertaining to the other people on the roadway :Wow:

I could probably borrow someones truck if it came down to it but with gas over $3 a gallon now... it would probably pay just to ship it. With the rebuild they do, does that include the heads as well? He did mention long block so I assumed so.

Yes, You will receive your original long block assembled, remanufactured, ready to to paint and install. Also included are any additional gaskets required to finish assembly/installation of your engine in your car and detailed starting procedures.

Sweet... again, thanks for the help!

VIN Restamped
 

The easiest way to slove this dilema is get the rebuild as they are most cost effective and have a warranty. There are no inconveniences as having to borrow tools, order parts and ask friend for favors. Then have the VIN restamped. Problem solved.

Even the purists would not know!

Good Luck!

Barry

Not only is restamping the VIN on a block unethical, it can also be illegal (depending on the circumstances).

Kind of what I was thinking.

Matt

Restamping is done all the time with classic muscle cars as finding the original blocks/transmissions to the cars is next to impossible. As in regards to the legality, it is perfectly legal within most of the states, but would confirm depending on where you reside. I am not condoning or implying "re-vinning" a car as that IS illegal, rather the enging parts discussed in the forum.

I appreciate all the advice offered and as mentioned before, I want to try and keep it as origional as I can due to the collectabilty factor. Now that I know I have an option to do that and it won't be such a big pain in my cheap ass, I feel just a little better about it.

It's not perfectly legal in most states, as many have laws specifically relating to defacing or altering VINs (whether on the engine or body of the vehicle). Additionally, it's just plain unethical.

I wouldn't be too happy if I bought a "Numbers Matching" car and found out it was "restamped"

Since I'm having the clutch issue with mine now and not driving it, I was actually going to buy an "extra" T-5 tranny on e-bay tonight so I could get it back on the road while I had the original rebuilt. The seller was out of Apopka which is just north of Orlando. His listing said it was rebuilt and shipping only. I sent him an e-mail asking if I could pick it up and if it had any miles on it since the rebuild as it did not specify. He responded back with "shipping only". I thought it to be strange as well as the fact he didn't answer my question about the miles.

5 minuts left and it's at $160 which I thought was a steal. I figured I would at least try 1 more time and explain I was just down the road in Orlando. I said "I would like to bid on it but can't see paying shipping because I'm in Orlando". I also asked again about the miles. He quickly responded back with "DONT BID!". Needless to say, I don't think he wanted somone coming back and knocking on his door after it crapped out after 100 miles. It went for $250 and I almost feel sorry for the poor sap.

What is actually "illegal" in most all states is the REMOVAL of the VIN number from a block. Yes, the decking process on a block will remove head surface area will also remove the "numbers" if they are stamped on the block head surface like older Chevy engines.

Virutally every state has some statute against the REMOVAL of a serial number or engine ID number from the block. Very few have any statutes addressing the re-stamping of of those numbers back on a block.

Now we all know why "restoration motors", I just love that term, are restamped before they are installed in a car. They increase the value of the car.

The problem that can then present itself is how is that motor represented by the seller when he/she sells the car? Do they represent the car as having the "original engine" or a "restoration engine"?

From my prespective there is probably NOT ONE SSP MUSTANG on the planet that could be represented/guaranteed as having its true original engine! Since most if not all SSP Mustangs were sold to government agencies and not individuals and have been sold at least once, NOBODY can represent their car as having the original engine BECAUSE the car has NOT been in the current owners pocession/ownership from day one when the car was new therefore you CANNOT guarantee the drivetrain to be original. There may be 1 original individul owner SSP Mustang still out there that could but I doubt it!

Since nobody who currently owns an SSP Mustang is the original owner of that car they CANNOT GUARANTEE the engine in their car is original. They may "think" it is, "know" it is or "dream" it is but they still cannot GUARANTEE it is the original engine since the car has NOT been in their personal pocession since new. Lot's of things could have happened to the original engine before your ownership of your car.

Having said all that, let's not ruin a bunch of SSP cars with all the "original engine" crap that I have put up with in Chevrolet's for the last 25 years!

Ehhh, all the same... when I pull the engine and it's got matching #'s, it's probably going to Benny for him to work his charm on it and then return it to it's rightful home once again. If not, well then I guess it would be no different than if my wife cheated on me and never told... I will still be happy with the woman I "think" she is.

Mike,

We're not "ruining" anything here, and your post is full of inaccurate information.

Altering, removing, restamping, etc. etc. etc. is a crime in many states, and there are probably Federal regulations that impact that activity as well.

Many people have cars with the original drivetrains in them, and there are ways (ie. studying machining marks) to prove that the VINS on those blocks are not restampings.

It's ludicrous to say that not one SSP owner can verify the originality of their engine. Personally, I don't see a problem with a replacement engine, but why anyone would would to "restamp" one with the correct VIN, other than wanting to pass the car off as "numbers matching", is beyond me.

Well said.

I pulled an OASIS (or whatever they are called) on mine when I bought it from the state, and I also transferred the extended warranty from DHSMV (6 yr/100K mile). I was glad I did...the A/C went out about 3 months after I bought it and it was fixed for free. :)

I'm sure you'll find the original stuff in there.

Ludicrous? Just ask the Corvette boys that have been sued in civil court over the issue of an original engine!

I think you have missed my point. The Corvette hobby in particular has turned into a bunch of con artist's trading cars. LOT'S of restoratation motors that everyone forgets to tell the next buyer about.

I stand by my statement: How can "you", as second owner or after guartantee the engine is original in your car? You cannont because the car was not in your pocession since new and you could be the victim of a restoration motor.

Yes, this is all semantics in how it is said or presented however are you willing to guarantee in writing that the engine in your car is original? I would not place myself in that position of potential litigation if there is a problem.

Yes, most restamps are easily detectable. However not all. Just ask Al Grenning. The man with a library of over 20,000 detailed pictures of Corvette engine VIN stamps. The stamp is not the problem. The "broaching" of the head surface upon which the stamp is applied is the problem. Chevrolet used a broaching machine instead of a decking machine. A 10 power eyepeice can be your friend. There are a couple guys in the Corvette world with a broaching machine and they can make their stamps un-detectable! This is why Al can charge $1000-$2000 for a personal pre-purchase inspection of a Corvette to verify the engine and other components. This is what the Corvette world has become.

If restoration is the ultimate goal of many SSP Mustang owners this could "ruin" this part of the hobby also. Let's hope not as this process develops over years as cars become more valuable.

Untimately it's "All About The Money"! That's why people restamp engines and change dates on all the other components which they "claim" is in the name of restoration. That's BS! It's about the money and making their car more valuable.

I personally could car less about an "original engine", "matching numbers" or a "restoration engine". The car does know or care what engine is in it driving down the road. I am stating my opinion that has developed and changed over the years concerning the issue of original/restoration engines.

On a $5,000 SSP Mustang, nobody cares! But you can damn sure bet whoever buys that 8,000 mile 1993 SSP Mustang running on Ebay right now DOES CARE and will check everything out properly. By the way, the seller of that car is also selling the car "AS IS" with no guarantee!