Rebuild vs. Reman - Page 4

Winterpark SSP · #31 11-11-2007, 10:04 PM

Restamping is done all the time with classic muscle cars as finding the original blocks/transmissions to the cars is next to impossible. As in regards to the legality, it is perfectly legal within most of the states, but would confirm depending on where you reside. I am not condoning or implying "re-vinning" a car as that IS illegal, rather the enging parts discussed in the forum.

FHP0665 · #32 11-11-2007, 10:29 PM

I appreciate all the advice offered and as mentioned before, I want to try and keep it as origional as I can due to the collectabilty factor. Now that I know I have an option to do that and it won't be such a big pain in my cheap ass, I feel just a little better about it.

ImEvil1 · #33 11-11-2007, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterpark SSP

Restamping is done all the time with classic muscle cars as finding the original blocks/transmissions to the cars is next to impossible. As in regards to the legality, it is perfectly legal within most of the states, but would confirm depending on where you reside. I am not condoning or implying "re-vinning" a car as that IS illegal, rather the enging parts discussed in the forum.

It's not perfectly legal in most states, as many have laws specifically relating to defacing or altering VINs (whether on the engine or body of the vehicle). Additionally, it's just plain unethical.

FHP813 · #34 11-11-2007, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterpark SSP

Restamping is done all the time with classic muscle cars as finding the original blocks/transmissions to the cars is next to impossible. As in regards to the legality, it is perfectly legal within most of the states, but would confirm depending on where you reside. I am not condoning or implying "re-vinning" a car as that IS illegal, rather the enging parts discussed in the forum.

I wouldn't be too happy if I bought a "Numbers Matching" car and found out it was "restamped"

FHP0665 · #35 11-11-2007, 11:02 PM

Since I'm having the clutch issue with mine now and not driving it, I was actually going to buy an "extra" T-5 tranny on e-bay tonight so I could get it back on the road while I had the original rebuilt. The seller was out of Apopka which is just north of Orlando. His listing said it was rebuilt and shipping only. I sent him an e-mail asking if I could pick it up and if it had any miles on it since the rebuild as it did not specify. He responded back with "shipping only". I thought it to be strange as well as the fact he didn't answer my question about the miles.

5 minuts left and it's at $160 which I thought was a steal. I figured I would at least try 1 more time and explain I was just down the road in Orlando. I said "I would like to bid on it but can't see paying shipping because I'm in Orlando". I also asked again about the miles. He quickly responded back with "DONT BID!". Needless to say, I don't think he wanted somone coming back and knocking on his door after it crapped out after 100 miles. It went for $250 and I almost feel sorry for the poor sap.

Vintageracer · #36 11-11-2007, 11:03 PM

What is actually "illegal" in most all states is the REMOVAL of the VIN number from a block. Yes, the decking process on a block will remove head surface area will also remove the "numbers" if they are stamped on the block head surface like older Chevy engines.

Virutally every state has some statute against the REMOVAL of a serial number or engine ID number from the block. Very few have any statutes addressing the re-stamping of of those numbers back on a block.

Now we all know why "restoration motors", I just love that term, are restamped before they are installed in a car. They increase the value of the car.

The problem that can then present itself is how is that motor represented by the seller when he/she sells the car? Do they represent the car as having the "original engine" or a "restoration engine"?

From my prespective there is probably NOT ONE SSP MUSTANG on the planet that could be represented/guaranteed as having its true original engine! Since most if not all SSP Mustangs were sold to government agencies and not individuals and have been sold at least once, NOBODY can represent their car as having the original engine BECAUSE the car has NOT been in the current owners pocession/ownership from day one when the car was new therefore you CANNOT guarantee the drivetrain to be original. There may be 1 original individul owner SSP Mustang still out there that could but I doubt it!

Since nobody who currently owns an SSP Mustang is the original owner of that car they CANNOT GUARANTEE the engine in their car is original. They may "think" it is, "know" it is or "dream" it is but they still cannot GUARANTEE it is the original engine since the car has NOT been in their personal pocession since new. Lot's of things could have happened to the original engine before your ownership of your car.

Having said all that, let's not ruin a bunch of SSP cars with all the "original engine" crap that I have put up with in Chevrolet's for the last 25 years!

FHP0665 · #37 11-11-2007, 11:31 PM

Ehhh, all the same... when I pull the engine and it's got matching #'s, it's probably going to Benny for him to work his charm on it and then return it to it's rightful home once again. If not, well then I guess it would be no different than if my wife cheated on me and never told... I will still be happy with the woman I "think" she is.

ImEvil1 · #38 11-11-2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vintageracer

What is actually "illegal" in most all states is the REMOVAL of the VIN number from a block. Yes, the decking process on a block will remove head surface area will also remove the "numbers" if they are stamped on the block head surface like older Chevy engines.

Virutally every state has some statute against the REMOVAL of a serial number or engine ID number from the block. Very few have any statutes addressing the re-stamping of of those numbers back on a block.

Now we all know why "restoration motors", I just love that term, are restamped before they are installed in a car. They increase the value of the car.

The problem that can then present itself is how is that motor represented by the seller when he/she sells the car? Do they represent the car as having the "original engine" or a "restoration engine"?

From my prespective there is probably NOT ONE SSP MUSTANG on the planet that could be represented/guaranteed as having its true original engine! Since most if not all SSP Mustangs were sold to government agencies and not individuals and have been sold at least once, NOBODY can represent their car as having the original engine BECAUSE the car has NOT been in the current owners pocession/ownership from day one when the car was new therefore you CANNOT guarantee the drivetrain to be original. There may be 1 original individul owner SSP Mustang still out there that could but I doubt it!

Since nobody who currently owns an SSP Mustang is the original owner of that car they CANNOT GUARANTEE the engine in their car is original. They may "think" it is, "know" it is or "dream" it is but they still cannot GUARANTEE it is the original engine since the car has NOT been in their personal pocession since new. Lot's of things could have happened to the original engine before your ownership of your car.

Having said all that, let's not ruin a bunch of SSP cars with all the "original engine" crap that I have put up with in Chevrolet's for the last 25 years!

Mike,

We're not "ruining" anything here, and your post is full of inaccurate information.

Altering, removing, restamping, etc. etc. etc. is a crime in many states, and there are probably Federal regulations that impact that activity as well.

Many people have cars with the original drivetrains in them, and there are ways (ie. studying machining marks) to prove that the VINS on those blocks are not restampings.

It's ludicrous to say that not one SSP owner can verify the originality of their engine. Personally, I don't see a problem with a replacement engine, but why anyone would would to "restamp" one with the correct VIN, other than wanting to pass the car off as "numbers matching", is beyond me.

ImEvil1 · #39 11-11-2007, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FHP0665

Ehhh, all the same... when I pull the engine and it's got matching #'s, it's probably going to Benny for him to work his charm on it and then return it to it's rightful home once again. If not, well then I guess it would be no different than if my wife cheated on me and never told... I will still be happy with the woman I "think" she is.

Well said.

I pulled an OASIS (or whatever they are called) on mine when I bought it from the state, and I also transferred the extended warranty from DHSMV (6 yr/100K mile). I was glad I did...the A/C went out about 3 months after I bought it and it was fixed for free.

I'm sure you'll find the original stuff in there.

Vintageracer · #40 11-12-2007, 10:11 AM

Ludicrous? Just ask the Corvette boys that have been sued in civil court over the issue of an original engine!

I think you have missed my point. The Corvette hobby in particular has turned into a bunch of con artist's trading cars. LOT'S of restoratation motors that everyone forgets to tell the next buyer about.

I stand by my statement: How can "you", as second owner or after guartantee the engine is original in your car? You cannont because the car was not in your pocession since new and you could be the victim of a restoration motor.

Yes, this is all semantics in how it is said or presented however are you willing to guarantee in writing that the engine in your car is original? I would not place myself in that position of potential litigation if there is a problem.

Yes, most restamps are easily detectable. However not all. Just ask Al Grenning. The man with a library of over 20,000 detailed pictures of Corvette engine VIN stamps. The stamp is not the problem. The "broaching" of the head surface upon which the stamp is applied is the problem. Chevrolet used a broaching machine instead of a decking machine. A 10 power eyepeice can be your friend. There are a couple guys in the Corvette world with a broaching machine and they can make their stamps un-detectable! This is why Al can charge $1000-$2000 for a personal pre-purchase inspection of a Corvette to verify the engine and other components. This is what the Corvette world has become.

If restoration is the ultimate goal of many SSP Mustang owners this could "ruin" this part of the hobby also. Let's hope not as this process develops over years as cars become more valuable.

Untimately it's "All About The Money"! That's why people restamp engines and change dates on all the other components which they "claim" is in the name of restoration. That's BS! It's about the money and making their car more valuable.

I personally could car less about an "original engine", "matching numbers" or a "restoration engine". The car does know or care what engine is in it driving down the road. I am stating my opinion that has developed and changed over the years concerning the issue of original/restoration engines.

On a $5,000 SSP Mustang, nobody cares! But you can damn sure bet whoever buys that 8,000 mile 1993 SSP Mustang running on Ebay right now DOES CARE and will check everything out properly. By the way, the seller of that car is also selling the car "AS IS" with no guarantee!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImEvil1

Mike,

We're not "ruining" anything here, and your post is full of inaccurate information.

Altering, removing, restamping, etc. etc. etc. is a crime in many states, and there are probably Federal regulations that impact that activity as well.

Many people have cars with the original drivetrains in them, and there are ways (ie. studying machining marks) to prove that the VINS on those blocks are not restampings.

It's ludicrous to say that not one SSP owner can verify the originality of their engine. Personally, I don't see a problem with a replacement engine, but why anyone would would to "restamp" one with the correct VIN, other than wanting to pass the car off as "numbers matching", is beyond me.